My conversation with pro prasanjit Biswas.
Prasanjit Biwas - Immanuel Kant's Religion within the bounds of Reason alone thrashed out the idea of duty as an obligation to the law, but such a duty goes along goodwill for the Other. A religious man, therefore, remains duty-bound to respect the Other religion as well. In Hegel religion, itself becomes subjectivistic giving rise to unmediated communities of faith. Between Kant and Hegel, somewhere lies the possibility of radical evil in Man. Can we overcome it in the spirituality of faith?
Randhir Gautam ( me ) -
Kant claims the individual should become autonomous and follow universal precepts like the categorical imperative. To follow the law is obligatory but decisions over inclinations must follow laws that it gives itself. Kant’s key distinction is between heteronormative - following laws given - and autonomy or self-legislation - following laws it gives itself. Kant’s moral philosophy does not jettison the heteronomous but transcends it via autonomy.
Hegel posits then religious life as authentic in his early writings up to the Phenomenology of Spirit, or Mind, when he located absolute knowledge or synthesis as transcendent of religions, perhaps due to his recognition of the multiplicity of religions! After this point, he recognizes the issue of social order and posits the state, along with law as ‘right,’ as the essence of social order. Hegel is recognized as a statist philosopher and his early works are not often discussed; the Phenomenology along with the Encyclopedia explicate his notion of dialectics or change.
Evil is not a topic that either discusses in detail although the Philosophy of Right by Hegel contains specific sections on problems and Perpetual Peace by Kant addresses the main issue of war and the necessity of diplomacy.
The realist perspective on evil takes human nature in a real sense as having a violent essence, as biological and political. Therefore the law of force is necessary and the main question is over the degree of constraint!
The problem with faith or religion is that it has too often led to war, violence, artifice, exclusion, etc., basic evil. The ideals of religion are meaningful, ie love, but it lacks the values of freedom, equality and rights which is why the moral philosophies too often fail to act morally either by no action or zealotry and fanaticism. Morality itself may not have the impact it should have on states of the affair - it is not necessarily a constraint!
Prasanjit Biswas - I am extremely happy to read the detailed response from you. The last paragraph brings out your own position. Saying that moral philosophy is not constrained to operate morally is like saying religion does not operate religiously. Putting it this way prioritizes limits, antinomies and constraints, while both religion and moral philosophy guided by categorical imperative do not require any such constraints. Violations of the moral law, therefore, is a violation of the imperative of moral law, it is not a violation of a counterfactual condition of restriction. To understand this argument, you may kindly read Barry Stroud's essay entitled, Kantian argument, conceptual capacities and invulnerability. As far as Evil is concerned, Kant discussed it prominently in
Gesammelte Schriften in German. You can try to read it. Kant thought a variance is an act of free will that changes the contours of faith into grace.
As far as Hegel is concerned, radical evil is part of Bildung, a delegated framework for aufhebung of any error in religious faith.
Randhir Gautam - There is a distinction between moral judgment and moral action, discussed in the literature.
You don’t think that religion often does not ‘act’ religiously? In phenomenology, discussions of the other and violence (Sartre, Levinas) address the gap in philosophy over evil, over the absence of the problem of the other, eg explaining the Good Samaritan or the problem of genocide, war, etc.
I’ll look at Stroud again. If you could, can you be more exact in your citation to Kant and Hegel?
Bildung is basically education, socialization, development. Hegel discusses this in his Phenomenology of Spirit, 1807. Religious consciousness is a very late development as I thought I indicated.
Presanjit Biswas- I gave you a kind of problematic in response to your notion of constraints on moral philosophy to say that constraints do not work. What works is the following of principles and their violations. Both situations are free from constraints. This could be exemplified by saying religion does not act 'religiously', which means not acting according to its stated principles. But that does not mean that moral philosophy, in a similar vein, does not act in a moral way. It rather means that moral philosophy is open to violations by certain kinds of action and actors, on whom prior constraints cannot be imposed. I have given some references of Kant earlier. Hegel's Zerrissenheit’ is the source of Bildung, the formation of second nature with its many expressions and manifestations connected with Sittlichkeit and to be overcome by aufhebung, as I mentioned. Both Phenomenology and Encyclopaedia have such a framework. Further, you may see Hegel's Grundlinien der Philosophie des Rechts and Werke in zwanzig Bänden. Of course, reading should be subject to interpretation.
Randhir Gautam - You don’t actually speak and read in German do you? Can you just write the titles in English so I know what you are actually referring to?
Philosophy is not the same as action, ever. Praxis and practice can be described and discussed in philosophy but this is a distinct entity from the action. Likewise for language, which is a form of action, but is distinct from the use of implements, activity. The orders are not the same as the implementation or application.
Moral philosophy and judgments are distinct from moral action and action generally. Two different things!
Sittlichkeit means ethical relations which enters language prescriptively or a posteriori as description, in between is the event!
I am well-read, so if you refer to a philosopher, I have background knowledge. But I don’t speak German. Orwell also complained about writers who punctuated their work with foreign terms, why not just use your own words?
Prasanjit Biswas - Randhir Gautam can I discuss with you in chat? Seemingly, you are philosophically sound, but not a professional philosopher.
P B - So for Kant and Hegel both, they looked at religion necessarily on the basis of their metaphysical conception of how beliefs are formed and how they are concretized. But both these aspects are inseparably connected.
Without original sources, you can' t formulate much in Philosophy, as English sources are not always sufficient.
Randhir Gautam - Firstly, define philosophy by distinguishing it from the professions and theology and science. Philosophy is not a technical skill! Philosophy involves evaluation and interpretation to advance understanding!
Are you poking fun at English? In philosophy, it is improper to assert without offering a reason!
The ‘metaphysical’ is often used pejoratively as imaginary or thought or as a conceptual framework and thus as arbitrary. So, I would not use the term, concept suffices.
Kant does not state how beliefs are formed, as far as I know. Kant addresses the necessity of a certain way of thinking from a priori conditions to a posteriori perception and then back into the or ‘a’ system of thought!
Hegel does offer an account of how beliefs change on the basis of their adequacy (to account for all known factors and problems) which may have followed from his reading of Kant and its reception. Kant addresses the necessity of each concept in his formal system of Critiques - this follows from Hume’s criticism of induction and causality which Hume claims does not contain necessary conclusions. The conclusion for Kant is that their antinomies (dualisms) which are not resolvable and require faith or assumption. However, for all other phenomena, science is required. Kant is a natural scientist who recognizes the limits, eg free will, god, etc. But, Kant’s moral philosophy and politics are deterministic and universalizing: autonomy, categorical imperative, etc. Kant is also a liberal who recognizes the 3 prongs: individual rights, freedom under the law, and equality, that is, universality.
Hegel’s primary impact is his Philosophy of Right! His Phenomenology of Mind and other similar works are important, but historically and politically, the Philosophy of Right amplifies beyond Kant the freedom of thought, the limitations of spirit as geist or culture and the institutions of the state. Hegel does not abide by the liberal notion of equality as seen from the perspective of the master-slave dialectic or the relation between subjects and to the state! Hegel does recognize rights which is only one part of the meaning of his title!
The relation of belief to realization is highly conditioned for both philosophers who cannot be called instrumentalists or pragmatists! They are not!
Prasanjit Biwas - Immanuel Kant's Religion within the bounds of Reason alone thrashed out the idea of duty as an obligation to the law, but such a duty goes along goodwill for the Other. A religious man, therefore, remains duty-bound to respect the Other religion as well. In Hegel religion, itself becomes subjectivistic giving rise to unmediated communities of faith. Between Kant and Hegel, somewhere lies the possibility of radical evil in Man. Can we overcome it in the spirituality of faith?
Randhir Gautam ( me ) -
Kant claims the individual should become autonomous and follow universal precepts like the categorical imperative. To follow the law is obligatory but decisions over inclinations must follow laws that it gives itself. Kant’s key distinction is between heteronormative - following laws given - and autonomy or self-legislation - following laws it gives itself. Kant’s moral philosophy does not jettison the heteronomous but transcends it via autonomy.
Hegel posits then religious life as authentic in his early writings up to the Phenomenology of Spirit, or Mind, when he located absolute knowledge or synthesis as transcendent of religions, perhaps due to his recognition of the multiplicity of religions! After this point, he recognizes the issue of social order and posits the state, along with law as ‘right,’ as the essence of social order. Hegel is recognized as a statist philosopher and his early works are not often discussed; the Phenomenology along with the Encyclopedia explicate his notion of dialectics or change.
Evil is not a topic that either discusses in detail although the Philosophy of Right by Hegel contains specific sections on problems and Perpetual Peace by Kant addresses the main issue of war and the necessity of diplomacy.
The realist perspective on evil takes human nature in a real sense as having a violent essence, as biological and political. Therefore the law of force is necessary and the main question is over the degree of constraint!
The problem with faith or religion is that it has too often led to war, violence, artifice, exclusion, etc., basic evil. The ideals of religion are meaningful, ie love, but it lacks the values of freedom, equality and rights which is why the moral philosophies too often fail to act morally either by no action or zealotry and fanaticism. Morality itself may not have the impact it should have on states of the affair - it is not necessarily a constraint!
Prasanjit Biswas - I am extremely happy to read the detailed response from you. The last paragraph brings out your own position. Saying that moral philosophy is not constrained to operate morally is like saying religion does not operate religiously. Putting it this way prioritizes limits, antinomies and constraints, while both religion and moral philosophy guided by categorical imperative do not require any such constraints. Violations of the moral law, therefore, is a violation of the imperative of moral law, it is not a violation of a counterfactual condition of restriction. To understand this argument, you may kindly read Barry Stroud's essay entitled, Kantian argument, conceptual capacities and invulnerability. As far as Evil is concerned, Kant discussed it prominently in
Gesammelte Schriften in German. You can try to read it. Kant thought a variance is an act of free will that changes the contours of faith into grace.
As far as Hegel is concerned, radical evil is part of Bildung, a delegated framework for aufhebung of any error in religious faith.
Randhir Gautam - There is a distinction between moral judgment and moral action, discussed in the literature.
You don’t think that religion often does not ‘act’ religiously? In phenomenology, discussions of the other and violence (Sartre, Levinas) address the gap in philosophy over evil, over the absence of the problem of the other, eg explaining the Good Samaritan or the problem of genocide, war, etc.
I’ll look at Stroud again. If you could, can you be more exact in your citation to Kant and Hegel?
Bildung is basically education, socialization, development. Hegel discusses this in his Phenomenology of Spirit, 1807. Religious consciousness is a very late development as I thought I indicated.
Presanjit Biswas- I gave you a kind of problematic in response to your notion of constraints on moral philosophy to say that constraints do not work. What works is the following of principles and their violations. Both situations are free from constraints. This could be exemplified by saying religion does not act 'religiously', which means not acting according to its stated principles. But that does not mean that moral philosophy, in a similar vein, does not act in a moral way. It rather means that moral philosophy is open to violations by certain kinds of action and actors, on whom prior constraints cannot be imposed. I have given some references of Kant earlier. Hegel's Zerrissenheit’ is the source of Bildung, the formation of second nature with its many expressions and manifestations connected with Sittlichkeit and to be overcome by aufhebung, as I mentioned. Both Phenomenology and Encyclopaedia have such a framework. Further, you may see Hegel's Grundlinien der Philosophie des Rechts and Werke in zwanzig Bänden. Of course, reading should be subject to interpretation.
Randhir Gautam - You don’t actually speak and read in German do you? Can you just write the titles in English so I know what you are actually referring to?
Philosophy is not the same as action, ever. Praxis and practice can be described and discussed in philosophy but this is a distinct entity from the action. Likewise for language, which is a form of action, but is distinct from the use of implements, activity. The orders are not the same as the implementation or application.
Moral philosophy and judgments are distinct from moral action and action generally. Two different things!
Sittlichkeit means ethical relations which enters language prescriptively or a posteriori as description, in between is the event!
I am well-read, so if you refer to a philosopher, I have background knowledge. But I don’t speak German. Orwell also complained about writers who punctuated their work with foreign terms, why not just use your own words?
Prasanjit Biswas - Randhir Gautam can I discuss with you in chat? Seemingly, you are philosophically sound, but not a professional philosopher.
P B - So for Kant and Hegel both, they looked at religion necessarily on the basis of their metaphysical conception of how beliefs are formed and how they are concretized. But both these aspects are inseparably connected.
Without original sources, you can' t formulate much in Philosophy, as English sources are not always sufficient.
Randhir Gautam - Firstly, define philosophy by distinguishing it from the professions and theology and science. Philosophy is not a technical skill! Philosophy involves evaluation and interpretation to advance understanding!
Are you poking fun at English? In philosophy, it is improper to assert without offering a reason!
The ‘metaphysical’ is often used pejoratively as imaginary or thought or as a conceptual framework and thus as arbitrary. So, I would not use the term, concept suffices.
Kant does not state how beliefs are formed, as far as I know. Kant addresses the necessity of a certain way of thinking from a priori conditions to a posteriori perception and then back into the or ‘a’ system of thought!
Hegel does offer an account of how beliefs change on the basis of their adequacy (to account for all known factors and problems) which may have followed from his reading of Kant and its reception. Kant addresses the necessity of each concept in his formal system of Critiques - this follows from Hume’s criticism of induction and causality which Hume claims does not contain necessary conclusions. The conclusion for Kant is that their antinomies (dualisms) which are not resolvable and require faith or assumption. However, for all other phenomena, science is required. Kant is a natural scientist who recognizes the limits, eg free will, god, etc. But, Kant’s moral philosophy and politics are deterministic and universalizing: autonomy, categorical imperative, etc. Kant is also a liberal who recognizes the 3 prongs: individual rights, freedom under the law, and equality, that is, universality.
Hegel’s primary impact is his Philosophy of Right! His Phenomenology of Mind and other similar works are important, but historically and politically, the Philosophy of Right amplifies beyond Kant the freedom of thought, the limitations of spirit as geist or culture and the institutions of the state. Hegel does not abide by the liberal notion of equality as seen from the perspective of the master-slave dialectic or the relation between subjects and to the state! Hegel does recognize rights which is only one part of the meaning of his title!
The relation of belief to realization is highly conditioned for both philosophers who cannot be called instrumentalists or pragmatists! They are not!